Botanical Adaptogens

Welcome to the inaugural Two Herb Nerds podcast! In this first podcast episode, Julianne Grant and Kristin Gilmour share their love of plant medicine, discussing an ever increasingly valuable class of botanical medicines, the adaptogens; our herbal allies to enhance our ability to adapt to stress. Within this class of herbal medicines, Julianne and Kristin differentiate between some outstanding mental and physical adaptogens, highlighting their nuances and demonstrating where they shine in clinical practice. Join them as they delve into the clinical pictures of Bacopa (Bacopa monniera), Holy Basil (Ocimum tenuiflorum), Rehmannia (Rehmannia glutinosa), and Rhodiola (Rhodiola rosea) exploring how these herbs can support resilience, restore balance, and help individuals navigate the demands of modern life.

Transcript

Julianne Grant 0:08

Welcome to the Two Herb Nerds Podcast with Julianne Grant and Kristin Gilmour, where botanical medicine comes to life. Whether you're a seasoned herb nerd or just beginning your journey, this podcast is your place to explore herbalism in practice.

Kristin Gilmour 0:22

Alongside our work as clinical naturopaths, we've spent over a decade immersed in herbal medicine research and education, and we're excited to share our love of plants with you.

Kristin Gilmour 0:53

Uh, where each episode we're planning to dive into all things relevant to herbal medicine. And just firstly, to give you an idea as to why this is so exciting for us, we wanted to give you just a little insight into who we are and why we are such self-proclaimed herb nerds. So Julianne and myself are both practicing naturopaths, we're herbalists, and at our core, we really are deeply passionate about health education and that ripple effect that health education can elicit throughout the whole world. And particularly, we're really passionate about sharing the knowledge and wisdom of our amazing herbal medicine profession. We love discussing herbs. We love discussing the best clinical application of botanical medicines. We love breaking down the individual nature, the person picture of each herb. We love talking about how to differentiate between herbs that might have similar actions and really just how we can prescribe herbal medicines with greater precision and greater confidence in practice.

Julianne Grant 2:00

That's right, Kristin. We are so excited to be here. And alongside our clinical practice, we've actually spent such a significant amount of our career, both you and I, with our heads stuck in the research and around herbal medicine, but also around pathology, disease states, condition states, and even healthy states, and particularly around herbal medicine, can match those kind of processes or disease states or ways of being healthy. So we are super honored to have this platform and to continue this platform where we can translate sometimes complex research into and even traditional use of those beautiful plants that we use on a daily basis into modern clinical practice so that our practitioners listening and even those at homes that grow their own herbs and use herbs as tea or part of their food can have a greater understanding of how these beautiful herbs can impact their health and promote their health and longevity. So we are very excited, and it is a dual passion of ours to keep the love of herbal medicine, particularly in the naturopathic profession, alive so that practitioners continue to use their liquid herbs or herbs in any any form, really, tea form, food form, and keep those dispensaries alive. So we're really, really excited to be here once again.

Kristin Gilmour 3:15

Beautifully said, Julianne, I think that really is the art of herbal medicine for us. It's the magic that can happen when we blend all of that traditional use, intuitive knowledge of plants, experiential knowledge of herbs with all the amazing advancements of modern scientific research. So that blend is really where we sit and where we love to play around. And so for our first podcast episode today, of course we want to talk about herbs in this holistic way,

Botanical Adaptogens

Kristin Gilmour 3:50

but we wanted to pick out a few herbs from one of our favorite classes of herbal medicine, the class of adaptogens. So, you know, we're talking really here about uh those herbs that help our bodies adapt to stress and stresses. And we know that our bodies are designed to be adaptable, but sometimes those adaptations can get overwhelmed, they can get dysregulated, malaligned, and there's so much stress coming from so many different angles in the world that uh this isn't really surprising and adaptations can be so beneficial. And when we're talking about stress, often we think of mental emotional stress, but it can also be physical stress, environmental stress, postural stress. There's there's so much to kind of consider, and these herbs can really help us adapt to whatever stresses we are facing while also supporting our overall resilience. So these are the herbs that are often described as rejuvenating. They're often described as having a restorative or a normalizing activity on the body, and they're often working, this is the beauty of our plants, they're often working via multiple different pathways to bring the body back into balance and promote uh vitality and energy and that sort of essence that when we feel really good and we feel really healthy, that we we possess. So adaptogens are just a perfect herbal class to support us, particularly in our modern current society. Uh, I don't think it's a a stretch to imagine why, with every, you know, there's so much going on all the time. So really anyone can benefit from adaptogenic support. But maybe Julianne, could you try and pull out some things that would help us identify a patient picture of an individual that really calls out for an adaptogen that really needs this type of herbal ally to support them?

Julianne Grant 5:49

Well, you've done a great job already, Kristin, of saying that practically everyone that's living in this modern day can benefit from using a herbal adaptogen. And honestly, this alongside probably immunomodulators or immune adaptogens are my favorite class of herbal medicine. And I think I'm using them daily at the moment for myself, but also in clinic. And, you know, like you said, everyone could benefit from a bit of adaptogen uh treatment or tincture. And what I love about this class, and you've already explained this, but the difference between taking an adaptogen and just trying to support someone with dietary change or nutritional change is actually really significant. And we've spoken about this in lectures prior, well previously, but one of the things I love about the benefits of herbal adaptogens is that after seven to ten days of taking your beautiful nervine adaptogen kind of mix, you all of a sudden feel like you have more mental, emotional, or physical space and bandwidth to actually make those changes that you are requ that requested of you. So whether that's could you have a little bit more protein, could you have a little bit more fiber, could you go for a walk, could you go to bed a little bit earlier? They all of a sudden, your clients have this space and this improved bandwidth to actually make change. So honestly, you cannot underestimate the power of these for practically everyone. But if if we wanted to narrow down a little bit for a patient picture or a person picture, one big question I think comes to mind for all of these people is how is your capacity to handle life's demands? Is it shrinking? You know, is it getting smaller? Are you getting a little bit more overwhelmed? Or are you still feeling like you've got lots of space to deal with day-to-day demands? If your answer to that is no, actually, yeah, there's not much space for me left, you most likely will benefit from an adaptogen. But you could look at people that have that come to you and say they've got this fatigue that just doesn't resolve with more rest, they're waking up tight, sore, um, they wake up with worry, their stress tolerance is reduced, so they're snapping at their kids a little bit quicker or at their partners a little bit quicker. Um, and also other changes like cognitive changes. So you might have more brain fog, or you might your memory might be a little bit slower, or it's harder to recall names. Your focus might be not as on point. Another thing I look for is just how their immune resilience is handling um day-to-day activities as well. So are they getting sick a little bit more often? Are they not able to withstand those little insults from other infections or when their kids are carrying infections? Has their physical performance reduced? So this is not just athletes, this is what your work is up to, or how much capacity do you have? Is that reducing as well? Other things we don't sort of think about too much is just what's happening hormonally, particularly with both men and women, but particularly with women. So are you noticing that that's shifting for you as well? Um, is stress playing a role in that shift? And some other ones that we sort of don't think about often is even just digestive symptoms. Like, are your digestive symptoms worse because of stress? Like, you know, sometimes people aren't aware that we're in stress, or we can mentally put that aside. We can go, yeah, I'm stressed and I'm busy, but I'm fine. But our bodies are so black and white that you're either in stress or you're not. So, you know, if you notice other symptoms like digestive symptoms or cognitive issues or things like that, that might be your draw card to pull on some adaptogens. So I think as practitioners, we need to do a really good job at that history taking and having a good look at how that whole person is presenting. You know, are they under mental stress? Are they under physical stress, like you mentioned? Are they in environmental stress? Are they living with mold? Are they living with dust? Like, are there is there noise around them all the time? So these forms of stress are really important for us to gather. And then maybe we can go, hey, you need this particular adaptogen, and we move from there. But basically, I feel like anyone in this modern day and age can absolutely go for an adaptogen. And the other big time for adaptogen support is when people are making big life changes or when they're going through significant life circumstances such as grief, separation, moving house, uh, moving towns, um, their job is asking more of them at the moment. You know, these are times when I think adaptogens should just be standard practice. And you mentioned before, Kristen, that we have so many to pick from. We are so, so lucky. And they do cross over, but they, you know, the patient picture or the person picture for all of these herbs are beautiful and they are kind of unique. And the more you play with these plants, the more you understand who they really suit. Um, so you know what what sort of herbal adaptogens can you let us know about that are in our whole dispensaries to choose from?

Kristin Gilmour 10:42

There is such, as you know, Julianne, there is such a huge list of herbal medicines from this class that I know you and I rely on all the time. Many herbalists will have their own favourites. I think the way that you described, I really like the words uh bandwidth and space and capacity. I think they're really key words that uh initiate that kind of thought process of like, how much room do I have to adapt to change in my life, to adapt to what's happening around me? And because of because of that, because of that awareness, then you can draw on these different herbs. And I think

Adaptogen Favourites and Their Nuances: American Ginseng, Korean Ginseng, Licorice, Medicinal Mushrooms (Cordyceps, Reishi), Astragalus, Withania, Siberian Ginseng, Schisandra

Kristin Gilmour 11:23

herbalists listening, they'll all have their own favourites, the things that they rely on all the time. I think a lot of that can depend on uh, of course, the types of patients you see, but also what you've learnt in your schooling or your training, uh, what herbs are local to you. All of that can kind of impact which herbs are coming to mind for you now in this class. I mean, there might be practitioners out there that are really thinking, ah yes, I love the ginsengs. You know, you've got uh a few, quite a few ginsengs, but particularly American ginsengs, so Panax Quinquifolium and Korean ginseng, Panax Noter Ginseng, which come up a lot for their amazing adaptogenic qualities, they're significantly uh energy, uh I guess encouraging. They they increase or boost your vitality and you know, have these amazing cognitive benefits as well. You were mentioning that that can be a real uh area of health that can be impacted under stress. But, you know, when we're looking at those, like you said, Julianne, even between the ginsengs, there is there are nuances of who they're best applied to. And Korean ginseng is more heating, more stimulating in the way that it boosts vitality, whereas American ginseng is more nourishing, more yin to use a traditional Chinese medicine or TCM concept. And so more for those patients who are, they are tired, they may be exhausted, but they're they're wired, they've got that kind of anxious picture or they're they're really highly strung. You know, so that they might be herbs that come to mind. I know many practitioners, including myself, often lean on licorice for stress adaptation. Uh, licorice, we know, is an incredible adrenal tonic, and it's also a muco-protective herb, and our mucosa can be severely impacted under stress. You know, that's also part of that digestive picture, or it might be a respiratory picture, or whatever it is. Many of our medicinal mushrooms also modulate stress responses and tonify our system, and we might think of those. I know Julianne, you and I use Cordycepsum Rashi quite a lot, uh, but there's many. There's many to choose from. Astragalus is another great TCM chi tonic or energy tonic that builds vitality, helps you build that immune resilience and strengthen the immune system. There's also, of course, Withhania or Ashwagandha, which is an Auretic, uh, what they term rasayana, which is used to restore vitality. And uh Ashwagandha or Withania has actually gotten quite a bit of airtime on social media a little more recently. So it might also be one of those adaptogen, adaptogenic herbs that's also quite familiar to patients in a general sense. And patients might be listening and wondering, oh, is that particular adaptogen the most suitable for me? Um, but there are there are so many. There's a Luthercoccus or Siberian ginseng, you've got Shizandra, the list just goes on and on. We're really blessed with the variety and the amount, um, like the volume of adaptogens that are available to us. It's very nice how nature can uh match our need with what she is producing for us. And like you said, Julianne, the beauty of herbal medicines within any class is that they do have their own, even though they might all fall under the banner of a particular action, they'll have their own nuances, their own tissue or organ affinities that they that they work best for, their own um energetic picture, so looking at their thermal qualities, taste properties. And that's why, you know, we talk about them having their own personalities. So being able to differentiate them to quite a, I guess, um, as detailed as we can, uh, is so useful. It's so useful for us when we're prescribing uh our herbal medicines and trying to get the most appropriate, the most well-matched herbal medicine for the unique individual that's sitting in front of us. You know, my stress won't necessarily look like your stress, and my body's way of adapting won't always look like your body's way of adapting. So being able to make that match uh gets us really the best outcomes for our patients. And for those, particularly practitioners listening who love a bit of a snapshot reminder, a bit of a desk reference that is more of a quick uh, I guess, lookup kind of guide to help you differentiate between herbs. Julianne, you and I wrote a phyto-medicine compendium book uh that's actually a really great reference guide. And uh we we really wrote this for practitioners, but as practitioners ourselves, we're utilizing it all the time. I've got it right here next to me for this podcast in case I need it. And so hopefully many of you will have a copy of that, but if not, it is available to purchase online.

Julianne Grant 16:13

That's so true. It is a good compendium. I know we're biased, but it is thorough and it has some really great things like um putting keynotes to herbs, and that can help differentiate between your list of adaptogens, for example. Um,

Physical, Mental, and Immune Adaptogens

Julianne Grant 16:26

so within the class of adaptogens, though, we have different sorts of adaptogens or different types. So we can utilize adaptogens as mental adaptogens, which are more for those that are needing their cognitive functions to be on point, um, or they're noticing a decline there, or we're needing some physical adaptogens when that stress is really quite evident in their body and in their physicality, um, or even immune adaptogens, which is another favorite of ours, where their immune system is just not regulated how it should. It's not fighting as it should or balancing as it should. So we have different classes. But for today's podcast, we're going to dive into it now. Today's podcast, I think we wanted to choose one herb each that for us stands out as a mental adaptogen, and then also talk about one herb each as a physical adaptogen and try and just uh associate some of those differences and why we might choose one over another one and demonstrate where they shine clinically. So, Kristen, do you want to kick us off with your first mental adaptogen, or well, your one and only that I'm allowing you to speak about today, which is Bacopa?

Kristin Gilmour 17:30

Of course. And we're only really limiting it because of time, because we could really talk forever as we usually do when we're talking about herbs, uh, just breaking them down and talking about their clinical applications.

Bacopa (Bacopa monnieri)

Kristin Gilmour 17:42

So I am going to be talking about Bacopa as my first mental adaptogen. Bacopa's Latin name is Bacopa Maneira, and I really do find Bacopa to be one of my most reliable mental adaptogens, especially for improving learning speed, mental clarity and focus, uh, memory, as well as overall brain health. But really that that focus domain, that attention domain for me is where Bacopa really, really shines. And it's it's been a plant that has been used in traditional Indian or Ayurvedic medicine for many, many years, and it's termed a medha rasayana. So that just means it's a herb that can sharpen and rejuvenate the mind and the intellect, which is a great description of what a mental adaptogen can do. And so, of course, this cognition enhancing, or another um word for that, is nootropic activity, is so important to us in our current society, as we've we've sort of already spoken about, especially considering all of the stresses that our nervous system and our central nervous system in particular is exposed to these days, and the the cognitive issues that we're seeing. There is an incredible burden of dementia. It's a leading cause of death in Australia and worldwide. So it's a huge area of health that we need to be aware of and uh try and support where we can. But I do also think back to those earlier centuries when these herbs uses were first sort of being discovered. And I think back to how much harder it was to record and retrieve information. Of course, they didn't have, you know, the internet, and now with AI, like to just have every every bit of information at your fingertips. So Bacopa, of course, was so valuable for them back then, and it was highly, highly uh revered to help with this. And there's a great um sort of, I guess, uh tidbit of information where it's spoken about that bakopa was used by ancient Vedic scholars to um help them memorize really lengthy sacred hymns and scriptures. So it was really valuable back then for helping for that retaining of information and that that memory and attention. And the Sanskrit word for Bakopa is Brahmi, that's what it's called. And so you may have heard people refer to Bakopa by that name as well. And I do love the actual name Brahmi because it translates to that which expands consciousness, so it's just a beautiful illustration of the incredible mental adaptogenic potential of Bacopa. If you think about, you know, your brain opening up to be able to take in so much information and retain it. It's just, it's quite beautiful. Uh, but I don't actually often use the name Brahmi as a common name because it was also a name that was applied to another great mental adaptogen that I don't have time to talk about today, um, from the Ayurvedic tradition called Gocci Cola or Centella Asiatica. So that's another great herb. They actually combine really nicely together where they're indicated. They're both cooling, adaptogenic, mental adaptogens. Gotcha cola has quite a nice affinity for um connective tissue and repairing connective tissue. So uh that's another great herb in its own right. But I'm I don't usually refer to Bacopa as Brahmi just because I don't want to get them confused. But it's a nice nomenclature kind of insight into Bacopa's value as a mental adaptagen. And so Bacopa has got this really long, really revered history in the area of cognition. And because of this, modern research has quite extensively investigated its role in cognition, which is great for us in terms of evidence-based practice. So, particularly in the learning, the memory domains, in the aging brain, we're actually quite lucky in that we have both a lot of mechanistic studies as well as human clinical trials that give us sort of more insights into Bacopa's amazing effects. Um, for instance, we see that Bacopa acts as a potent antioxidant within the central nervous system. So it looks to directly increase free radical scavenging as well as increase the activity of our own endogenous antioxidant systems, which is really the gold standard when we're looking at protection against oxidative stress. So it provides fantastic neuroprotection and it can be utilized to help protect our mitochondria and our DNA from neurotoxic effects. And there's so many different types of toxins we could think about that can really damage and impact our nervous system. And in fact, there's some really interesting animal studies that showed that Bacopa was able to quite effectively protect the brain from toxic effects from heavy metal exposure. So that's one example, particularly mercury and aluminium exposure. And as someone who has supported quite a few patients who have had mercury exposure, you know, I see them experiencing these issues with their memory, with word recall, with verbal learning. And I can tell you that Bacopa is often a really nice fit for these patients. And uh, you know, so that's that's one thing we could think about that might be damaging our brain. We could also think about endogenous reasons. Uh, we might think of cerebral ischemia. And actually, uh, when I was looking up stuff quite recently, I came across a very recent animal study that showed Bacopa quite significantly protected uh, I think it was mice, brain tissue from stroke damage. So Bacopa really is a great antioxidant for the brain. You can kind of think of it like that because we know our brain is very vulnerable to oxidative stress, so that's a great action as part of its mental adaptation kind of capacity. We also see that Bacopa is able to positively impact the regulation and the balance of our neurotransmitters, both our neurotransmitters that are associated more so with cognition, but also with mood. So if you think about acetylcholine, serotonin, dopamine, and really what we see is that Bacopa is especially able to positively reduce chronic stress-induced changes in these neurotransmitters. So, you know, when you're under stress for quite a while and your nerve signaling and your neurotransmitters can become a bit dysregulated, that's really where Bacopa can fit in really nicely. And I think that's a very nice demonstration of its adaptogenic effects. It also seems to have Bacopa seems to have a modulating effect on a very important protein that many of our listeners would have heard about, uh, called brain derived neurotropic factor or BDNF. And we know that that's involved in the maintenance of physiological brain functions related to mood and concentration. And it's so important for our brain health because we know it it supports neuroplasticity. So our brain's ability to adapt, to form new neural connections, to help us make new habits. You were talking about that earlier as well, Julianne. Sometimes when people are under a lot of stress, their capacity to make a change that's going to be good for them can be, it can be quite overwhelming. And so increasing our neuroplasticity allows us the ability to form a new habit. And also it helps our brain repair itself over time, which is essential for brain health. So that's a really nice aspect to Bacopa. We also see that it um increases our cerebral blood flow. And I always think of rosemary for this action, which is a fantastic herbal medicine for helping to bring blood flow to the brain and the head area. But Bacopa does this as well, and so they can combine really nicely together. Bacopa also has been shown to reduce beta amyloid plaques, inhibit inflammation, and so on. And so when we look at all those mechanistic studies and then we move on to the human clinical trials, we can see that it's not surprising that Bacopa provides these significant cognitive benefits in in humans, in real scenarios, and particularly in the attention domain of our cognition. And what I really like about Bacopa is that when we're looking at all the studies, these have been conducted in lots of different cohorts. So there's been studies conducted in children, in adolescents, in adults, and in elderly cohorts. So you don't have to limit Bacopa's use. You can use it across all ages and stages of life if it's indicated. So I guess considering all of this information from traditional to modern use, who do I really think of prescribing Bacopa for? Where does it really stand out for me? I do think of it as my mental focus adaptogen, and particularly where stress really manifests as that poor attention and poor focus. But one way to look at this and one way that I see it play out in people is when patients are under stress and they have trouble making decisions or they make poor decisions when they're in that stress state, because it's that stress state sort of makes it hard for them to focus, hard for them to think clearly and to take on new information, and then their decision-making ability is impaired. And actually, thinking about this, I experienced this myself not that long ago when I was under a little bit of acute stress, and it just felt like my brain had put up a bit of a brick wall, and new information that I was trying to understand and retain, it was like it was just bouncing off it, and I couldn't I couldn't get this new information into my brain. My brain was it was overwhelmed. And Bacopa is very useful for that picture. And I actually find it's helpful to ask patients, you know, how how does stress affect your decision making? Or, you know, there's different ways to sort of word that, but that can be a really useful kind of clinical insight into whether Bacopa would be relevant. And the other thing about Bacopa, because it is a nervine tonic, um, it's also a little bit anti-convulsive, but it's it's a real tonic for the nervous system. It can be beautiful to help soothe irritability and anxiety, it can be useful for depression as well. But I would especially think of it when those mood issues are accompanied with some sort of brain fog or focusing issues. That's kind of the double tick that would indicate Bacopa for me. So I find it uh to be incredibly useful a lot of the time in both children and adults with ADHD. Uh, it's also a fantastic herb for many women when they're experiencing brain fog in perimenopause, when patients are having trouble with word retrieval, or you know, they say, Oh, my memory just isn't what it used to be. You know, it's a great herb for that. It's really one of my absolute go-to's for people who are experiencing cognitive overload. And that can be acute and as well as as chronic. But some examples that come to mind, I think you sort of alluded to this earlier as well, Julianne, when there's big changes in your life, like maybe students are studying for exams, or you've just started a new job and there's a lot to kind of process and and understand. Maybe you're a new mum, you know, maybe you've had a big change like moving house, or there's been some significant uh I guess loss or, you know, a loss or gain in your life that that changes things, and you get that cognitive overload or cognitive overwhelm, it's a great herb. And I find that it it actually helps with emotional regulation in these patients as well. And one thing to note about Bacopa is it's energetic. So it is, I mentioned this very briefly, but it is cooling, it's also astringent and bitter and sweet, but I think it's its cooling nature helps to differentiate it from some of those more heating mental adaptogens like Korean ginseng that I mentioned earlier. So it's useful to calm and cool more heat-related symptoms in the nervous system like mental agitation and restlessness. So if that's there, if that's present as well, that would further indicate Bacopa. And I think something else that we often forget, I often forget, is that uh Bacopa can also have an impact on the gastrointestinal system and it helps lubricate the bowel because it's a it's a sapinin-containing plant. So if I do see GI symptoms like constipation alongside cognitive issues, this would further indicate Bacopa. So, and I use it both long-term and short term, and I think clinical trials support both. There is even a clinical trial that looked at uh one dose of Bacopa and found that it demonstrated some adaptogenic and and nootropic effects, but we do know that with adaptogens, it is that cumulative effect that gets us the best results.

Julianne Grant 30:46

Kristin, that is such a great overview of Bacopa. It's one of my favorites, and I always think back to exam time as a naturopathic student and leaning on Bacopa and being mind-blown literally by how much it improved my ability to concentrate and to retain information under, you know, high stress situations. And I just wanted to drop a little bit of extra information for those nerds, such as you and I, out there listening, that particularly those that do a bit of genetic testing or epigenetic testing. And something I've been thinking about lately, and I've and I've seen in quite a few of my patients actually is that they might be slow, have slow comped activity or those SNPs, plus some inflammation SNPs, which say it's an interferon or something like that, that actually can directly impact the brain in terms of where that inflammation is uh settling or formatting. I mean that's a whole body picture, but it can definitely impact brain health. And I think when we see someone that has that inherent susceptibility to slowly metabolize those stress hormones or even other monoamines, particularly in the frontal lobe where we're making emotional responses and we're trying to concentrate and make good decisions from, um, that could be a really good indicator of someone who may need support there with something like Bacopa to improve our neuroplasticity and to improve the metabolism of those particular neurotransmitters as well, that can impact how we're handling stress literally within the brain. Um, so I think that could be a really nice insight for those that are doing those genetic testing, like we are, um, and it really helps us lean into some of more of our mental adaptogens than we would those physical adaptogens for people that are under that chronic stress or acute stress. And you mentioned a lovely companion herb such as rosemary, and I think it is a beautiful one, particularly if we're working on those cognitive functions and trying to improve blood flow, etc. Um, but also the one I think of with those kind of genetic SNPs might be a saffron. So using saffron with Bacopa clinically has been so beneficial. Um, and that's just something that came to mind as you were speaking. I started putting those patients that I've been seeing and doing the genetic testing with, and there's a lot of us so comps out there, I'm one of them. Um, and I think that support herbally, you you know, is just so valuable, really it is.

Kristin Gilmour 33:12

It's a fantastic point, and it really I think it goes to show as well, whatever type of practitioner you are as a herbalist or a naturopath, there is so much data that you can pull from whether it be testing, whether it be case taking, uh, you know, whether it be really looking to the energetics of the person and matching that to the plant, there is so much information that points us in the direction of the appropriate herb. And it is actually funny that you should mention saffron, Julianne, because actually, right before this podcast, I did take a little bit of saffron, a little bit of bacopa, a little bit of rosemary, and a little bit of um romania, which is the other herb that I'm going to be talking about. But I thought, you know, really to get in the spirit of things. So I think that's a fantastic point. And now, Julianne,

Holy Basil (Ocimum tenuiflorum)

Kristin Gilmour 34:04

if you would like to maybe talk about another mental adaptogen, another herb that you and I love, and uh as we share a dispensary, I know we go through quite a lot of. Uh, so I know we're using it all the time. Holy basil.

Julianne Grant 34:18

Yes, otherwise known as Tulsi 2, you know, the Tulsi T's, um, holybasil, Oxanum tenwiflorum is definitely one of my favorites, and it is a fabulous mental adaptogen. I guess where it differs a little bit to something like a Bacopa is it's, in my opinion, is slightly less so. It crosses over a little bit more into that physical adaptogen sort of space as well. Um, and we know that it it has direct impact on that from all of the clinical trials and mechanistic trials that we've seen in the research. Um, and holybasil has such a rich history of use, you know, so does Bacopa. Most of our plants do, but some of them just stand out. And holybasil is one of those plants that, particularly in Ayvedic medicine, it just has such a beautiful, revered history of use in many aspects, in spiritual aspects, in medicine, it's just a beautiful plant. And when this first came out, I think we started using it straight away, it's just fabulous. You also might know it, or what's known as in those traditional Ayvedic circles, is the elixir of life, which is wonderful and says a lot, uh, the queen of herbs, which is beautiful for it as well, and also liquid yoga, which I hadn't heard much of, but I've been noticing it lately. Liquid yoga. So that's wonderful. It's been used for thousands of years in India and Nepal for its medicines properties. And you mentioned that Bacopa was a Rasayana, and I think Withania was a Rasayana as a herb as well, and that's that rejuvenating tonic. Well, holy basil is also classified as a rasayana herb, and it really does nourish a person's growth and to what they call as perfect health or promoting longevity, and I just love that term. You know, Rasiana plants in general actually are used to promote physical and mental health and promote that non-specific resistance in the body, which is basically what an adaptogen herb does. So these are kind of those true adaptogen herbs that we're talking about. One of the things I love about holy basil is just this sanctity to it, this spiritual sanctity to it. So in India, holy basil is often planted at the entrance of homes. It's used as this daily ritual, um, religious ritual, and normally the day is started with drinking Tulsi tea or holy basil tea as part of that kind of grounding connection to spirit kind of process. And I adore that so much. Um, but really also it has been used not just in that sense, but traditionally for so many ailments across time. But really, where it comes back to, I think, is that we see a crossover with stress-induced conditions, anxiety, low mood, nerving, tonic sort of issues, or adaptogenic kind of issues. And it's just been a staple for its stress-relieving properties, really. Something I do want to talk about while I've got the spiritual edge here, you know, clearly it's anchored within me for a little bit, is that the plant in India is a claim to possess sattva. So sattva is this energy of purity, and it's basically capable of balancing the chakras or bringing on goodness and virtue and joy in humans. And I do see this as a joy plant. Like I and I think hopefully by the end of this, you can kind of understand that a little bit too. But it it really does distinguish this mental adaptogen from something like a Bokopa or Gotcha Cola or a Korean ginseng, is its ability to bring joy and to see the light at the end of the tunnel. You know, satvic, a satvic herb in nature basically means that it has the energy to align with the gods, to to align itself with harmony, with peace, with knowledge, and with spiritual growth. So this may not be your bag as a practitioner or anything, but I just think what it lends to is the virtue of the plant, to be honest with you, that it does bring groundedness, it does bring this mental space, um, this calm space, and the ability to see joy through any kind of situation. And Holy Basil absolutely does that. And I it's probably one of the reasons why we use it so much. If we look at why it works, in particular in chronic stress, there's probably two major, without diving too deep into the biochemistry of the plant, it's probably two major areas of mechanisms that it works as an adaptogen. And one of those is that it has been found to directly impact the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal access and modulating that stress response. So through clinical trials, we can see a reduction in saliva cortisol. So we know that it brings balance to that HBA access directly, but it also works to regulate central monoamine. So things like, you know, dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline, it brings some of that balancing, particularly when people are under that chronic stress and there's this imbalance of those neurotransmitters. And that's super inflammatory. If we come back to that slow comp person, that is just going to make that even worse with that slow stress. So bring on holybasil, bring on some Bacopa, and that's going to be really supportive. So they're kind of its two main activities, particularly around how it supports mental clarity, decision making, memory enhancement, but also someone's ability to adapt to stress, to adapt to whatever stress that may be. That's one of its two main mechanisms. But also it's like Bacopa, highly antioxidant. So really in it, its antioxidant activities and its ability to scavenge free radicals supports that activity within the brain. So it will reduce the oxidative stress that comes from slow compt, that comes from stress alone, that comes from too much inflammation. Or Kristen, even as you were speaking before, when there's a heavy metal overload or a toxin overload, you know, these beautiful plants like Bacopa and Holybasil will do a great job at supporting oxidative stress and reducing it within the brain, within the central nervous system, as well as a whole. So I think mechanistically, they're the kind of main ones that can that can help us to choose holybasil when we need to. And also, one of, like I mentioned before, one of the key things I love about holybasil is that it's not just adaptogenic in its classic sense. And so it's not just a mental adaptogen where it does improve our acuity, our ability to think things clearly and have a little bit of a sharper brain, if I can say it that way. I don't believe it's as strongly so as Bacopa. Um, I think it pairs exceptionally well with Bacopa when we need it. But I think it has more of this mood modulation, this thymoleptic activity that honestly, through my years of clinical practices has been astounding for my patients. And Kristen, you and I see patients that have been through a lot over a long period of time and having the ability or to improve their ability to see the light at the end of the tunnel, you know, that we're on a great path and to bring some joy in that process. Holy Basil has done such a tremendous job with that. Um, and opening up their ability to cope with their process and their pathway forward has been actually really lovely. Um, and I'm hoping that people listening to this, particularly practitioners, um, have their own kind of insight to that too and have witnessed that as well. I know also I leaned towards holy basil tea, you know, with a paired. Um, the other day, I I was feeling a bit flat for whatever reason, and I reached for my holy basil with rose, and it was just the best tea. I literally sipped on that all day. I think I had about three or four freshly brewed cups of that, and it made such a tremendous difference. Um, particularly those of us here in the southern hemispheres are going through winter and we might get a feeling a little bit flat. By all means, go and get some beautiful um holy basil tea and sip on that throughout, and it is warming. Sip on that throughout your day. Um, but yeah, that that's sort of how it sits mechanistically. And we do have so many clinical trials actually with with holy basil and with Bacopa. Um, they sort of sit in areas like stress and cortisol. So even in these random control, randomized controlled trials, we do see that a decent dose, just a normal dose of holy basil, has significant reduction in perceived stress and anxiety symptoms. And we also, as I mentioned before, when they're looking at the physical differences, they've seen the reduction in salivary cortisol, blood pressure, um, and that's been significant as well across the studies. What I do like is this mood-changing ability of uh Holybasil. And so studies have also shown that it can support and reduce those symptoms of anxiety and mild depression. Um, and I'm loving that, and I'm using that clinically as well. And we have research around its cognitive function that, you know, standardized Tulsi extracts can improve cognitive function scores, all in working memory, in attention to detail or in attention and reducing error rates as well. The other it's like this kind of repeated message anytime you see a holy basil clinical trial, is that not only are their the mental capabilities are improved or their stress management is improved, but you'll see this crossover with their anxiety and depression scores improving too. So that's the same with these cognitive function uh research or clinical trials. They've also got this side note of quality of life, reduction in stress and anxiety and depression. So Really, it's a beautiful plant for that. And that's where I generally lean on it. I must admit, when there's that slight depression or if there's that anxiety picture, flatness, I will lean for holy basil as one of my key adaptogens. You know, it's unique to me in that way, and that's how I use it. So if I'm looking at someone that could really work and use holy basil clinically, it is someone that's kind of got this chronic stress picture that they're a bit depleted, but they are not flatlined. You know, they can do with a bit of stimulation, they sub that supports them like Holy Basil does. It's given that little bit of a mental ping, but also a physical ping. Um it makes them feel like they can handle that workload in the moment and they can see through that workload. So that kind of chronically stressed professional is a good one, or that anxious kind of overthinker where it's all too much in their brain and we just want to quieten that load a little bit. Uh, that can be a really good picture for Holly Basil. You know, we don't can't forget about the students and the creatives and those that are cognitively overstretched, those overthinkers, the students, um, knowledge workers is another way to kind of explain that type of person. Yeah. Their cortisol is just constantly elevated, their neurotransmitters are having a hard time balancing out, you know, their moods might come in and out. Um, holy basil, it's it's just beautiful for that. And finally, if there's that person that that enjoys meditation, that enjoys that spiritual connection, but they're not finding like they've got the space or time to do that, that could really isolate holy basil as your choice of adaptogen. But for me, it it really stands out as that joyful mental and physical adaptogen um that I'm giving to that person that has been chronically unwell, chronically stressed, and I'm just wanting to give them a joyful boost.

Kristin Gilmour 46:00

I totally agree. And I think that I love how, because you and I often describe Holy Basil as uh, you know, helping patients to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I think you you illustrated that so beautifully, and it also always makes me think of the picture of Holy Basil, what it what the plant actually looks like, it grows straight and upwards, and it's just got this uplifting kind of energy to it, where if we thought about a bit of a doctrine of signature, that it is that kind of lifting you up, maybe lifting you out of your brain fog, lifting you out of that kind of stuckness or that that kind of chronic picture of what whatever it is you've been dealing with. It's often my immunomodulator of choice when somebody has uh needs that upliftment, needs that kind of uh redirection a little bit into the positive to help them move through whatever it is they're going through. So I loved that. I really love that description.

Julianne Grant 47:10

Yeah, it's a great plant. That is a wonderful way to bring in what the plant actually looks like and how we can translate that over to the client that we're seeing. Well done. I love that. Thanks, Kristin.

Rehmannia (Rehmannia glutinosa)

Julianne Grant 47:20

Now we're going to move into some physical adaptogens, and we'll try to narrow this down a little bit for you as well. We talk a little bit too much, Kristin, but it's only because we love the plants and we want everybody to use the plants mindfully. So I would like you to talk about Romania, which is actually a plant that I've been taking for a little while now, and so I'm looking forward to hearing what you can say about this plant.

Kristin Gilmour 47:43

Very happy to. It's nice that we're kind of moving from some traditional Ayurvedic revered uh adaptogens with a little bit of that mental focus, and now we're moving into some traditional Chinese medicine type herbal medicines with a little bit more of that physical focus. And so uh if I'm talking about Romania or Romania glutenosa as its Latin name, it's one of those herbs that just has this huge reputation in TCM or traditional Chinese medicine. It's classified as what they call a top grade or a superior class herb in ancient Chinese texts, which just basically means that it was considered especially valuable but also safe for long-term use. And the way that I use Romania now, I do tend to use it longer term as an adaptogen as well as an adrenal tonic and trophorestorative, as an immune modulator, as an organ protector. So I I am using it more long term, but I do find it to be a very safe herb. So I am kind of using it in that sense of that superior class herb description. And if I'm comparing it to another amazing adrenal tonic and tropher restorative that I did just briefly mention earlier, licorice, Romania doesn't uh have the same kind of caution around high blood pressure that licorice can have. And in fact, Romania is anti-hypertensive. And so that's just one little aspect that I think illustrates its safety and its breadth of use. And you know, the way that it's described uh of how it's been used medicinally over thousands of years also gives me a lot of confidence in the safety of the herb and in my own experience of the herb. And so an example of how it was spoken about traditionally, it's mentioned in the very, very early TCM herbal text, The Divine Farmer's Herbal Classic or The Divine Farmer's Materia Medica. Now, this text does have a Chinese title, but for this podcast, I'm not going to attempt to pronounce it because I will butcher it. So, but you may have heard of this text. It's a very famous um Chinese medicine text that illustrates a lot of what we know about the traditional use of our herbal medicines from the TCM tradition. And the way that it's described in this text, it's described so beautifully as a herb of restoration, literally bringing the body back to health. It's talked about being used to support recovery from injuries, to replenish the body's reserves, to promote the growth of healthy tissue. The text, there's a great quote from the text that um says something like protracted taking, so taking the herb long term, uh, can help to make the body light and prevent senility. So it's literally described even all the way back then as an anti-aging, vitality-inducing plant. So through history in both Chinese culture and then later in our Western herbal medicine culture, Romania has really been revered as a tonic or adaptogenic herb. It's it sits so nicely in this class that it's a fantastic plant to talk about. And one thing, just quickly before I get into its actions, just to note or to remember about Romania, particularly when we're reading literature on it and research on it, is that Romania can actually be prepared in two different ways. So we use the root medicinally, but it the root can be prepared as a cured or steamed extract, or it can be used as an uncured extract, which is the way that we mostly use Romania in as Western herbalists in Australia, especially in liquid extracts, we're using it as the uncured, you know, raw-dried form. And I just think this is an important distinction because if you are reading information about romania, uh it's good to know which which preparation you're dealing with, because in TCM, those two forms of romania are treated almost like different herbs because they're used for slightly different patterns that present in the body. And a lot of that really comes down to the energetics of the plant, which change slightly depending on how romania is prepared. So uncured romania, which is what uh we're using mostly and what I'm going to be talking about today, it's considered to be cold in nature and have a sweet and slightly bitter taste. And so, in the Chinese medicine paradigm, that made it a great herb for clearing what they termed uh blood heat and nourishing yin. And so practitioners would use Romania for symptoms associated with excess heat and also depleted fluids. So, if we think of presentations that included fever, an intense thirst, a dry mouth, maybe a red or scarlet-colored tongue, uh, mouth ulcers, flushing of the cheeks, uh, rashes or inflammatory skin conditions, constipation, insomnia, fatigue, uh, also bleeding conditions and diabetes-like symptoms or presentations. So that was sort of the energetic picture of what uncured Romania was used for. And so I really think of it as this deeply cooling, moistening herb. I think we often forget that Romania is is quite nicely moistening. Uh, and so it's it's great when the body seems overheated, dried out, inflamed, and depleted. And I think that picture for me really nicely fits the picture that I think of when I think of adrenal exhaustion. You know, if we think of the term burnout, you know, somebody burns out, or they might even say, I feel burnt out, that is almost literally the picture here. It's that that stress that's led to this picture of chronic inflammation, of heat and and potentially dryness. And Romania is fantastic for that picture. And because it's been used as a tonic to strengthen the adrenals, that's really how we we understand it. It's also been used as a tonic to strengthen the kidneys, which in TCM store what they term our ging or our essence, which is like some of our deep foundational or constitutional energy reserves. So this tonifying action on our adrenals and our kidney gin, our essence, our constitutional energy, I think this makes rheumania such a good physical adaptogen for people that just feel like they're running on empty a little bit. They're fatigued, they may even be exhausted, you know, they might really have that exhaustion picture, uh, they're they're burnt out. Whether they're saying they're burnt out or not, it's it's evident. So you can see inflammation that's not resolving, immune dysregulation, you can see dryness and heat sort of cropping up in different symptoms systems of the body. And so that combination of cooling heat while restoring fluids is, I think, part of what made Romania such an important remedy historically, uh, and but also currently. And because the way that it sort of settles heat is quite, I guess, it's quite nice. Like it it works on raising yin in the body and it's moistening. So it actually settles heat and yang is, you know, yang and yin are opposite um energies in in the Chinese medicine paradigm. So it settles yang in a more stable way rather than just, oh, we're gonna put out the fire and that's it. It's it's very building, it's a nice building plant. And so now in our Western herbal dispensaries, because you and I, Julianne, are Western herbal medicine practitioners predominantly, you know, uh the way that it's used and through research and through our clinical and modern use, I think we've even got a broader picture of the actions and the mechanisms of Romania. So, again, it's a potent antioxidant. I think that's a common theme throughout all of these adaptogens. Romania is also uh strongly inflammation modulating and strongly immune modulating. And I would say it is a key herb that I consider for my autoimmune patients, as well as patients that may be presenting with an allergic or an atopic kind of presentation. And that makes a lot of sense, I think, when you think about its energetics. It's also known to be antihemorrhagic and hemostatic, which is in line with that traditional use of being used in bleeding disorders. But you might think about someone where this kind of stress has impacted their tissue state and their their tissues have become a bit dry, and maybe there's a little bit of blood in their urine from a UTI, or maybe there's some blood in their sputum or GI tract. In their GI tract, they might have a you know some inflammation that's causing damage. Maybe there's gastritis, there's ulcers. So it's very protective of organs and tissues, I think is what I'm trying to say. And it's protective generally, but it does sort of seem to have affinities to a few particular organs and systems. So, of course, the adrenals, um, but also the liver, uh, the kidneys, the musculoskeletal system, the nervous system, and it is also another neuroprotective plant and the cardiometabolic system. And I mentioned before it's anti-hypertensive, it's also cardioprotective. And when we're looking mechanistically at its effect on metabolic and diabetic presentations, the the through line from traditional use to modern use is really nice. Romani has been shown to have really beneficial effects on the pathogenesis of diabetes through multiple avenues. It's it does everything from sort of balance helping to balance blood sugar as well as working via neuroendocrine immunomodulation. So it's a great herb to consider as an adaptogen if maybe that stress is metabolic, maybe that stress you know is coming from a bit of an endogenous imbalance. And uh also, of course, it's it's HPA access, so it's hypothalmic pituitary adrenal access modulating effects have been studied because it's been such a reliable adaptogen and adrenal tonic and trophorestorative in in traditional use. And very interestingly, there is some research that that is sometimes quoted that that I do keep in my mind because it's been shown that Romania may be helpful to protect against the suppressive effects that corticosteroid medications can have on the body's own corticosteroid production. So I think that very nicely speaks to Romania helping the body preserve or restore its reserves. And you know, if you've got a patient that has a long history of corticosteroid use, it might be one that you'd consider. So I guess really my my personal picture of this herb as an adaptogen, as a physical adaptogen, I'm using it for people that have that have been under stress, that has left them depleted, it um maybe has left them dry. And one way that I remember, I've always need I must need all of these mnemonic kind of devices to remember things, but one way that I remember that Romania is moistening and good for that sort of heat and dryness picture is that through its Latin name, so glutinosa, which you know comes from the word glutinous, and uh I think it's referring to that sticky texture or sticky nature of the root, which then, you know, if I'm linking things, that reminds me of the fact that Romania is a polysaccharide-rich plant and reminds me how good it is, therefore, for the immune system and our microbiota. But yes, uh that helps me remember that Romania is great if that person is dry, maybe they're burnt out. It's that burnt out picture. So I can see maybe a little bit of bleeding in in certain tissues, but I can definitely see inflammation. Um, maybe there's allergies, maybe there's autoimmunity, uh, maybe there's a history of corticosteroid use. Uh, another thing that would indicate rumania for me is if the patient has elevated liver enzymes or there's some other symptom of liver or kidney inflammation, that would really be another tick against Romania's name or metabolic issues. So I do find Romania to be a fantastic physical adaptogen that works beautifully in that patient picture.

Julianne Grant 1:00:52

So well said, so well said. Um I love Romania. Definitely in my autoimmune clients, I think that's where I use it quite a bit. Um, that chronic heat drying kind of person. And you've just explained that that person so well. It's so foundationally nourishing for those people. It's like you said, it's safe, it's long-term. Um, it's like there's this inbuilt anti-inflammatory immune mod stress adaptation that comes every time you have it. And I just love using it, often with licorice, I guess, um, to kind of superpower those activities for those that can handle licorice. Um, it also helps the taste. But it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful, deeply, deeply nourishing plant. And yeah, thank you. That was such a good overview of how we can use it clinically.

Kristin Gilmour 1:01:43

And I think you and I probably both like the description of Romania because we've both uh it's been an ally for both of us at many times in our lives. So we we both suit that picture quite nicely.

Rhodiola (Rhodiola rosea)

Kristin Gilmour 1:01:54

But now, Julianne, maybe you could talk about another herbal medicine that's been used in traditional Chinese medicine as well, rhodiola.

Julianne Grant 1:02:02

Thank you. Yes, rhodiola is a lesson we'll speak about today. And now we're still talking about the physical adaptogen activities of rhodiola. But as I mentioned with Holy Basil being this beautiful mental adaptogen with the crossover physical um capabilities as well, improving physical um adaptation to stress. Well, rhodiola is that physical adaptation that also has that mental crossover as well, because it's quite stimulating. This is quite a stimulating plant. So, not everybody would be able to handle rhodiola. Um, and it is one that we can think about to stimulate mind function, but to stimulate the body's energy and particularly its reserves, all right. So the the I always remember rhodiola because as a new grad, I had a friend that was struggling with fatigue and long-term stress response, and you know, there was a lot of chronic stress going over. So I just sent her a little 50 mil, or actually probably was a hundred mil of rhodiola straight, and she messaged me straight away and said, What is this pond scum that you have just sent me? And I have to share that story because you know, here's little naive Julianne going, I'm gonna send you the most beautiful adaptogenic herb that I know that's going to support you energetically and improve your mood. But hey, it doesn't taste good. So she actually didn't end up taking it because it was too hard to take. So that is probably a herb that we might want to think about combining with a licorice or something that is, or a ginger that is still also warming and stimulating. Um, just a little tidbit so you guys don't make the same mistake I made all the time ago. So rhodiola, rhodiola rosea is this amazing flowering perennial that was actually found or has been found. It's endangered now, so we use cultivated sources, so just be mindful of that. We don't use um wildcrafted sources anymore. But um, it's was always found in the Arctic regions of like Europe and Asia and North America. And so it was a plant that has literally evolved to survive the harshest conditions on Earth. And I think that I come back to that plant picture quite a bit, and it's historical use, it's got a long history of use as well. But it's, you know, you think of war-torn times or warriors, they're the people that have utilized or the traditions that have utilized rhodiola for hundreds and thousands of years, really. So, you know, it was used to help increase physical and mental stamina, particularly in soldiers. For example, when it was the Soviet Union, they actually researched rhodiola and they used it in all of their soldiers to help with their um ability to handle the conditions that they were under, to improve their stamina, to improve their endurance, and to improve their mental capabilities as well, their memory, their performance. So it really is a traditional use. Vikings are another uh region of people that have utilized rhodiola for those same kinds of attributes to improve their stamina in the harsh conditions, but also in warring times. Um, so it has such a long period of use there to improve our physical performance and to switch our mental faculties on. So I do predominantly use it in that way now. Um, whenever there is a patient of mine that they're not deeply, deeply depleted or wired and tired where this is going to be too stimulating for them. I tend not to give it to that overly wired person that it's going to be too stimulating for them. But it is that depleted picture that needs a little bit of an electric shock physically to bring up their performance, to bring up their physical and mental performance and ability to handle that stress. So any kind of stress, physical stress, whether their job has been a lot and they're doing a lot of physical output, whether they're an athlete and then just not meeting those physical demands at the moment, that is a person I will think about when they're literally reporting to you that they're not being able, they don't feel like they can work out as well as they used to. You know, everyday mums like. Me that feel like the exercise or going for a walk is just too hard. Any of those performance outputs are not being able to be met. Rhodiola is a great one to improve your physical stress. Someone's living in environmental stress, you know, whether that's a mold house or close to roads, close to dust, a lot of noise, emotional stress, mental stress, you know, high demands of a job. These are the people that can really respond well to rhodiola. And I always feel like rhodiola, even though historically it wasn't shown this way, it was used in soldiers, so it was used in men a lot. But for me, I I love rhodiola for my women that are depleted and they're perimenopausal and they just want that, you know, that brain to switch on and they want to have improved physical capabilities and exercise and keep up with their kids, you know. So I think that rhodiola fits beautifully in that kind of age group as well, in women transitioning through their hormones. Um, unless they are overly wired, that is when I would be more nourishing, like with Thania or even a holy basil to a point, you know, if it wasn't too stimulating to them. Definitely Romania, like Kristen was talking. So rhodiola impacts, you know, the HPA access again, it impacts now our monoamines again. They all seem to have this crossover, and it's a lovely antioxidant plant, it's a lovely anti-inflammatory plant. But there's a couple of things that stand rhodiola out that help me put a person picture to it. One of those is that it can actually directly support mitochondria and it's our energy production, so our ATP production and our oxygen utilization within mitochondria. So this is where we know about its performance ability to improve performance, I should say, physical performance. We we've seen in research, so in mechanistic research, but also in clinical trials, that you know, people's recovery from exercise is better. Their lactic acid buildup isn't as strong or as detrimental. They recover much faster from any of those sort of physical outputs. Um, and their ability to exercise or their capabilities to perform or exercise or do their job for longer has improved as well. So that's that direct kind of cardiovascular, but more so musculoskeletal activity within the mitochondria, I find is a really good thing for me to think about when I'm trying to prescribe radiola. But the other thing that it has, which is beautiful, is this affinity for the cardiovascular system, particularly the heart. It is highly cardioprotective. So if you have any patient or client that has a strong history of cardiovascular issues or a family history of cardiovascular issues, and you might just want to utilize this as your adapted in a choice simply to be cardioprotective, I think that that is great. If you have patients where their stress response is impacting their cardiovascular function, this is a beautiful normalizing cardiovascular herb, and it's highly protective of that system, right down to endothelial cells. So it's protective of endothelial cells. So if we think of vasculature, high blood pressure, you know, high lipids, rhodiola would be a beautiful protective plant to normalize their stress response while also trying to normalize and optimize the vasculature within their cardiovascular system, right down to endothelial cells, right even down to the mitochondria of those particular cells, too, really, and supportive of that function. So that's where it stands out. Um, and I think that can lend to that kind of person a little bit easier if we're trying to go. Well, does this person need some American ginseng or do they need some rhodiola? Do they need something that's more yang? Do they need something that's a little bit more yin? Um, is there cardiovascular involvement? Should I do holybasil rhodiola? Like you can have start seeing how these mind maps kind of kick in when you're starting to talk to the client sitting opposite you. Um, but rhodiola is beautiful. So think of that person that has they're burnt out, but they're just not stimulated. They need some stimulation, you know, they need a little bit of a gentle nudge to get moving and to produce a little bit more energy whilst also managing the stress that's around them. Um, if they're struggling with their cognitive function and they're flat physically, then rhodiola can be a beautiful support there. And once again, rhodiola will also support with mood. So if you're flat, no energy, brain fog, rhodiola would be a beautiful herb to use there. So I do think of it as that cellular energy production, looking after the mitochondria a little bit that way, improving our physical performance and also improving our mental performance for that really flattened kind of uh person picture. And if I'm needing a cardiovascular edge, often rhodiola is that choice. So someone coming out of recovery from a cardiovascular event, you know, that that is stable, but just needing that gentle, nourishing support of rhodiola, that can be really beneficial. And if we go back to perimenopausal women, often the cardiovascular system is something that changes through those years, through those hormonal years. When we lose some protective capabilities of estrogen and things over those years, over that transition, cardiovascular can be one of those systems that uh I guess where there may be weaknesses or inherit family genetics or something may start to actually play a role here in their world. I think this is where rhodiola can be a lovely shift. So if you're seeing changes in blood pressure, shame, changes in blood lipids, um, you know, even changes in rhythmic, in the rhythm of their heart, then we can start to look at rhodiola for sure. Marries beautifully with Hawthorne in that particular person, too. Um, yeah, so that is generally how I see rhodiola. Kristin, do you have any other thoughts on rhodiola or how you've used it clinically?

Kristin Gilmour 1:12:11

I think uh everything that you said, I really feeds into how I relied upon rhodiola quite a bit and found it to be really helpful for so many people during COVID, where there was a lot of fatigue, I saw a lot of anxiety, but also low mood. Um, and rhodiola went into a lot of people's mixes uh as an immune modulator, as an adaptogen, but also for its amazing ability to protect the heart, to protect the cardiovascular system and everything else that you said. And and I think the way that you described it is really that's that's perfect. That's how I would use it as well.

Julianne Grant 1:12:51

And it is great. Thank you for mentioning that. It is actually great for a post-viral sort of picture. Um, and yeah, like you mentioned for post-COVID, what a beautiful plant, particularly with its affinity for the cardiovascular system and its immunomodulating properties. It is great. So think that physically, mentally fatigued, but still needing to function, that's the person that we could think about rhodiola for. But please mix it with something tasty. That's my takeaway. Thank you so much, Kristen. This was great. Great to join back up again on the podcast platform and talk about herbal medicine that we absolutely love. And we can't wait to come back with our next podcast. And the best way to follow us is actually on social media. So on Instagram, following the Twoherb Nerds, um, which is Twoherb Nerds, and we'll put all of our updates on podcasts, what's coming up, on events we may be speaking at, or any courses we may be offering. So please give us a follow there, and we cannot wait to drop our second podcast in the near future.